The hugely influential screenwriting coach and consultant, Chris Vogler, author of the Joseph Campbell inspired best-seller, The Writer's Journey speaks to us about how he came to be one of the top developmental exectutives in Hollywood and around the world.
YaYaYa:How did you begin teaching writing and working as a developmental executive?
Chris:I grew up in the St. Louis area, got a journalism degree, served in the Air Force as a documentary filmmaker, and went to graduate school at USC to study cinema. Two big things happened at USC: I took a class in story analysis that opened up the world of development for me and pointed to a career path, and I encountered the ideas of Joseph Campbell that gave me a framework for analyzing stories. Oh, and the first Star Wars movie came out while I was in film school, confirming my belief that Campbell’s “Hero’s Journey” pattern would work for commercial movies, so three big things.
YaYaYa:Is the Writer’s Journey any different for a novel than for a screenplay?
Chris:Though my approach was developed with screenwriters in mind, novelists don’t seem to have any trouble adapting it to their needs, and were among the first to put it to use. A novelist might have more pages to deal with than a screenwriter but the proportions of the acts and stages are more or less the same.
YaYaYa:What is unique about writing for film?
Chris:You are limited to what the characters do and say, and you have to find visual ways to express internal, invisible states of emotion. You have to make the invisible visible, through symbols, light and shadow. In a novel you can simply describe all these intangible things, but on film you have to show it somehow. Show, don’t tell.
YaYaYa:Have all your screenplays been based on the Hero’s Journey?
Chris:I use the Hero’s Journey as a way of checking if I am on track or have forgotten some good story possibility. Of course, I use a lot of other guidelines as well. The individual story itself has its own shape and needs.
YaYaYa:What things have made you a better fiction analyst?
Chris:Observation of life. Acquisition of some life experience so I know what it’s like to face conflict and go through a crisis. Doing critical analysis of thousands of scripts and stories, so that I have a large mental inventory of story possibilities.
YaYaYa:Do you have a writing routine?
Chris:I have my little rituals. I turn on an old red lava lamp that signifies “Okay, I’m really writing now.” These days I have a model of a World War One bi-plane on my desk and I reach over and give the propeller a spin before I write the first sentence of the day. I usually start any writing session by taking a few deep breaths, closing my eyes, and letting my mind go over whatever I want to accomplish that day, visualizing the scene or reminding myself what I’m trying to say.
YaYaYa:Apart from Joseph Campbell, what do you consider your artistic roots?
Chris:Warner Bros. cartoons from the 1940s. Walt Disney. Warner Bros. movies of the 30’s and 40’s, especially the adventure films of Errol Flynn and Michael Curtiz. DC Comics, Classics Illustrated Comics. Horror movies and science fiction. Alfred Hitchcock and John Ford. And a powerful influence, oddly enough, was a toy company headed by a remarkable man named Louis Marx. Marx made playsets themed around popular TV shows and movies, including Fort Apache, The Untouchables, Ben Hur, The Alamo, Robin Hood, Davy Crockett, etc. You got a box crammed with little plastic soldiers, cowboys, knights, or gladiators and all the buildings and props to create a miniature movie set. I loved those little worlds in a box and admire the artistry that Louis Marx put into them. He didn’t have to: he did it out of pride in good workmanship.
YaYaYa:What got you interested in myth studies?
Chris:I guess it started with the movie The Vikings (1958) where they kept shouting to their sky god, Odin. I wondered how other cultures arranged their gods to represent different qualities, and if there was some underlying logic to it. My father noticed my interest in myths and brought me a bunch of books from the library that allowed me to compare the pantheon of the Greeks and Romans with the families of gods in Norse, Celtic and other cultures.
YaYaYa:What do you see as the most common problem in the writing that is submitted to you?
Chris:“Most common” is hard to pin down, because every script brings a different basket of problems. But often I see scripts that are simply under-developed. The writers have pushed through to get down the bare bones of the action plot, and have not yet done the work to make the characters believable and three-dimensional. And often writers are not yet sure about their theme. What are they really trying to say? What is their story really about?
YaYaYa:Today in both movies and YA publishing, the biz model drives franchises such as the Twilight and Harry Potter series. This extended form has unique structural challenges. Frankly, it’s hard to think of a trilogy that worked. Star Wars failed. The Godfather got the first two movies perfectly and the third was unnecessary. The Lord of the Rings was the same story over and over. Have you considered how you might plan for a franchise?
Chris:That must be a challenging assignment, especially when you are called in to revive a fading franchise or extend something that was never planned to run so long. I’d be thinking about tone and contrast, aiming to make each new installment stand out from the others with a distinctive style or approach. I’d be looking for ways to give the franchise a logical progression, possibly by exploring different aspects of a single theme. I’d be looking for secrets to keep for as long as possible, to keep the audience on the hook. I would look for changes of scale – some installments going in for close-up, intimate sub-stories and others reaching wide for epic scope. Of course, all the makers of the franchises you mention tried these strategies, so who really knows? Just keep it evolving in interesting, unexpected new directions, I guess.
YaYaYa:What do you read when it’s not for work?
Chris:I love sea-going adventures like the Hornblower books and Patrick O’Brian’s Master and Commander series. I read Penguin Classics, which are translations of ancient writers and things like the Icelandic sagas.
YaYaYa:Who are your favorite fiction writers? How about screenwriters and novelists/short story writers.
Chris:I’ve mentioned C. S. Forester and O’Brian. I got a lot of pleasure out of reading the fanciful stories of the Irish writer Lord Dunsany, and the classic science fiction writers, Jules Verne, H. G. Wells, Ray Bradbury, Robert A. Heinlein, Andre Norton, Poul Andersen. I admire the bold, epic screenwriting style of John Milius and the thoughtful, clever work of screenwriter and playwright John Logan.
YaYaYa:What are your three favorite movies and what do you love about them? If you have more than three that’s great.
Chris:The Vikings (1958), The Sea Hawk (‘39), Gunga Din (’39), The Wizard of Oz (’39: a good year!), Gilda (’46), Invaders from Mars (’53: scared the daylights out of me!), Gunfight at the O.K. Corral (’57) and its sequel, Hour of the Gun (’67), both directed by John Sturges. Forbidden Planet (’56). Hitchcock’s Notorious (’46), Strangers on a Train (‘51), North by Northwest (’59). Ben Hur (’59), Excalibur (’81), The Thin Red Line (1998), Gladiator (2000). Doubtless forgetting many favorites. Almost any John Ford movie.
YaYaYa:What would you add and what would you take away from your writing life to make it better?
Chris:I wish I had peeled off more time earlier to develop my own ideas. As a freelancer, you get in the habit of saying yes to every request for help from struggling writers, producers or studios, and for many years there was no creative energy left over to bring my projects further along. I am a bit more selective now and am enjoying growing a new brain to master the finer points of telling my own stories.
YaYaYa: Chris, what are you working on now?
Chris:I am preparing a new edition of my book The Writer’s Journey to celebrate the 25thanniversary of its publication. I am looking back and evaluating the influence that the hero’s journey concept, as expressed by Joseph Campbell, myself and many others, has had on screenwriting, superhero movie and TV franchises, novel writing and many other aspects of popular culture.
My take on the hero’s journey has always had a spiritual dimension, and in the 25thanniversary edition I launch a new exploration of the chakra system, which I believe has some practical uses for contemporary screenwriters. I encourage writers to study this system because it suggests where in the body different emotions are experienced, and where writers should be targeting their emotional effects.
We live in an exciting time where all our ideas about stories and characters are being stretched and tested to their limits. I look forward to seeing how storytelling evolves in the next few years.
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